Kogume siia teemasse Audi Bose helitehnikaga seotud info. Tõstsin Audiklubi serverisse kõik Audi Bose failid, mis neil kodulehel üleval olid.

Audi 100, 200, V8
Audi A1 2010- kolmeukseline 5.1 Surround
Audi A2 2000-2005
Audi A3 2004-2008 viieukseline
Audi A3 2005-2008 kolmeukseline
Audi A3 2008- kabriolett
Audi A3 2008- kolmeukseline
Audi A3 2008- viieukseline
Audi A4 1996-2001 universaal
Audi A4 2001-2004 sedaan
Audi A4 2001-2004 universaal
Audi A4 2004-2007 sedaan
Audi A4 2004-2008 universaal
Audi A4 2005-2008 kabriolett
Audi A6 1994-1997 universaal
Audi A6 1994-1997 sedaan
Audi A6 1997-2004 sedaan
Audi A6 1997-2004 universaal
Audi A6 2004-2008 sedaan Surround
Audi A6 2005-2008 universaal Surround
Audi A6 2008-2011 sedaan 5.1 Surround
Audi A6 2011- sedaan 5.1 Surround
Audi A6 2011- universaal 5.1 Surround
Audi A7 2010- 5.1 Surround
Audi A8 1994-2002
Audi A8 2007-2010 5.1 Surround
Audi A8 2007-2010 Surround
Audi A8 2010- 5.1 Surround
Audi Q3 2011- 5.1 Surround
Audi Q7 2006-2009 Surround
Audi Q7 2009- 5.1 Surround
Audi Q7 2016
Audi TT 1998-2006 kupee
Audi TT 1999-2006 kabriolett
Audi TT 2006-2010 kupee Surround
Audi TT 2007-2010 kabriolett Surround

Bose lehel olevatel failidel on mõni asi ebatäpne. Näiteks Audi A8 d3 mudelile tuli kohe alguses Bose.

Ühtlasi on mul palve klubilistele, et kellel on vanemate mudelite Bose pilte, faile vms, pange siia või saatke mulle klubi meilile ja ma panen ise üles.

Bose lingid:
1. Audi Bose current models
2. Audi Bose previous models
3. Saksakeelne Bose ülevaade (mõned mudelid rohkem nimekirjas)
4. http://www.audic4.de/bose-avant.html

Vajalikud lingid:
1. http://www.ertasvc.ru/bd/audi.htm
2. http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audi/radios
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-range_speaker
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woofer
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-range
8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker
9. SQ Audi 100S 2.8l:::1993:::Harry Jürgenson

Bang & Olufsen:
1. AUDI - Bang & Olufsen
2. A8 D3
3. A6 C7
4. A7 2012
5. Q7 2016



Harry Jürgenson (tonaalsus ja helipilt): tonaalsus, ehk inglise keeles "tonal balanss" on see KUIDAS pillid
kõlavad. Kas viiul kõlab viiulina, trummid trummidena, kui puhtalt kõlab vokaal, jne, jne. Ühesõnaga et miski ei häiriks kõrva ja kogu
kuuldav spekter moodustak ühe orgaanilise terviku.

Hea tonaalsus võib vabalt eksisteerida ilma igasuguse helipildita.

Helipilt seevastu tähendab seda, KUS asuvad pillid. Igal instrumendil on oma asukoht ruumis. Kui helipilt on hästi paigas, siis me võime kuulmise järgel öelda ja kasvõi käega ostada iga instrumendi või heliallika asukoha poole. Samuti võib öelda kuidas pidi on klaver laval , või näiteks kas laulja või mõni pillimees seisab paiga, või liigub vahepeal ringi.

Helipildi olemasolu ei nõua otseslt väga täpset tonaalsust ja võib eksisteerida ka halva tonaalusega süsteemis.

Hi end autos aga peaksid mõlemad suuta moodustada ühtse terviku ja olema viimse detailini paigas nii et silmi sulgedes jääks mulje et istud kas otse kontserdil või lausa helistuudios.


Harry Jürgenson (midrange ja midbass): Ideaalset kohta autos nagunii ei ole. Ükskõik kuhu sa neid kõlareid ka ei pane , igal pool on omad miinused ja plussid.
Kui paned nad kickpanelitesse, siis on head tonaalsust lihtsam saavutada, aga helipilt jääb madalaks ja kipub põrandast tulema.
Samuti ei saa suure tõenäosusega sealt isegi midbassi kätte.
Kui paned ukse sissse, siis midbassi saab sealt üksjagu, aga midrange jätab soovida ja uks tervikuna on kõige ebaõnnestunum koht midrangele üldse. Armatuuris seevastu saab helipildi õigele kõrgusele, ilusti enda ette aga hea tonaalsuse saavutamiseks tuleb rohkem vaeva näha. Eelistatud on sellised variandid, kus klaasipeegeldust ei tekigi, s.t. kõlarist tulev otseheli mitte ei põrka vastu klaasi , vaid on suunatud klaasiga paralleelselt. Selline asi aga pole kaugeltki mitte igas autos ilma suurte ringiehitusteta võimalik. Sellisel juhul on vajalik mingi 31-band EQ stiilis reguleerimisvahend, et sound paika saada ning samuti kõrva ja kogemusi. Tavaliselt mingid sagedused lähevad klaasipeegelduste tõttu valjemaks ja need tuleb EQ-ga alla tõmmata.
Eraldi teema on veel see, et osad elemendid toimivad sellise installis paremini ja osad elemendid natukene kehvemini.
Sõltub sellest, kas kõlari dispersion on kitsas või hajuv.
Edasi lisanduvad juba timedelayd, tänu millele helipilt laotub ühtlaselt ette armatuuri ja kapotti peale.Laulja kusagile esiklaasi ette-taha ja trummid kaugele laulja seljataha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter
A tweeter is a special type of loudspeaker (usually dome or horn-type) that is designed to produce high audio frequencies, typically from around 2,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz (generally considered to be the upper limit of human hearing).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-range_speaker
A mid-range speaker is a loudspeaker driver that reproduces sound in the frequency range from approximately 300 to 5000 Hz.. A mid-range driver is called upon to handle the most significant part of the audible sound spectrum, the region where the most fundamentals emitted by musical instruments and, most importantly, the human voice, lie.

http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_71
Ultimate UP36i - 3-way, 6,5 inches component
Crossover point (Hz) 500 Hz / 5000 Hz

http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_581
Ultimate UP6i - 2-way component 6,5 inches
Crossover point (Hz) 5000 Hz

http://ccs.exl.info/speakers.html
Center Channels - Center channels consist of a midrange speaker (3 or 4 inch) mounted in the middle of the dash (usually) on the top. Center channels play a mono (Left + Right) signal between 350 - 500 and 3500 Hertz (voice range). The purpose of the center channel is to raise the sound stage, by creating the sensation of the singers "being" in the front of the car, and not in the door panels. Center channels are hard to implement: First, a bandpass crossover is needed. Left and right channels have to be summed up. There are various commercially available center-channel processors (many with built-in amplification). The volume level of the center channel should be lower than the other speakers, since it is only supposed to make subtle changes to the total sound image.

Amadeus, kuna sa tundud selline hakkaja inimene olema, siis kas sa viitsid armatuuri keskel oleva ventilaatori resti lahti võtta ja vaadata, kas seal on ainult õhutuskanalid või on ka kõlar või vähemalt kõlari koht (kui viitsid, tee pilti)? Point selles, et Bosel on seal keskkõlar, kuid huvi on teada, kas ka tavasüsteemil. Tänud ette!

Minu B6'el igatahes armatuuris on pisike kõlarike, kokku siis 10 tükki autos. Ei ole Bose.

Tnx mehed! Ilmselt on tavasüsteemil keskel 50 mm element nagu ka Bosel.

Tänud!

Selline on A8 D3 Bangi süsteem. Põhiline vahe Bose süsteemiga on see, et Bangil on kesksagedus ukse sees, kui Bosel on see armatuuris ja Bangil on ees tweeterid, Bosel mitte.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-range_speaker
A midrange driver is called upon to handle the most significant part of the audible sound spectrum, the region where the most fundamentals emitted by musical instruments and, most importantly, human voice, lie. This region contains most sounds which are the most familiar to the human ear, and where discrepancies from faithful reproduction are most easily observed.

http://dls.se/files/802/2/Manual%20Gothia3.pdf
The speakers should be installed high up in the door side or in the dashboard.

Näiteks DLS'i juhised ütlevad, et kesksageduskõlar peaks olema paigaldatud uksepolstri üles otsa või armatuuri. Bängi element on D3-e uksepolstris heal juhul keskel, kui mitte madalamal.

Seda on raske öelda ilma Bose võimendit avamata, kuna B6 Bose keskkõlar on ühendatud siiski ainult võimendiga.
Samas see keskkõlar meenutab mõõtmetelt rohkem hiireköha edastamiseks sobilikku tweeterit .

Tõenäoliselt eksisteerib B6'l erineva põlvkonna Bose'sid. Uuemad on siis nn. DSP'ga ja neile käib külge salongimikrofon.

Keegi oskab öelda kalliks läheb bose süsteemi paigaldus audi A6 2007a, Või siis vähemalt originaal sooboofri paigaldus. Kui kellelgi on sellisele audile originaal sooboofrit võib pakkuda.
Tänud

Kõige parema helisüsteemiga luksusautot pakub Lexus

Audi A8
Helisüsteem Bang & Olufsen

Punkte kokku: 87
Punktid:
Harry Jürgenson: 67 punkti
Indrek Ando: 20 punkti

Plussid:
- head kõrged helid

Miinused:
- süsteemil napib jõudu
- puudub helipilt
- testi kõige jõuetum bass
- kesksagedust üritatakse mängitada läbi kõrgeid helisid mängivate kõlarite, kuid see pole hea lahendus
- subwoofer'i kinnitused tagumisel aknalaual jätavad soovida ja bassi lüües pläriseb

Indrek Ando:
Olen kuulanud ka Audi enda Concert-süsteemi selles autos ja see oli ausalt öeldes isegi parem.

Harry Jürgenson:
Eksklusiivse välimusega helisüsteem, kuid Bang & Olufsen on ja jääb disainifirmaks.

Ma saan aru, et Äripäeva test viidi läbi 2007. aastal ja testautoks oli A8 D3 kerel.
Jääb arusaamatuks mida peetakse silmas Concert-süsteemi all SELLES AUTOS ?

Analoogtehnoloogial "Concert süsteem" Bose võimendi ja kõlaritega eksisteeris ikka ju D2 kerel.

D3 kerel oli lisaks B&O'le valida veel vähemalt baastaseme 9 kõlariga digitaalse helisüsteemi ja digitaalse 11 kõlariga Bose Surround süsteemi vahel.
Viimati nimetatuid ei saa ju Concert'iks kutsuda ?

A6 C6, kas bose keskkõlar istub, kui autol originaalis pole bose systeemi? Saaksin uued bose keskkõlarid odavalt kätte.

Ehk keegi oskab aidata - mis tootekoodiga Bose kõlarid on Audi 100/A6 C4 sedaani tagumisel aknalaual? Võibolla on mul riiulis isegi seismas ühed, hetkel aga pole neile ligipääs just mugav. Võimendi koodi vast leian ise.

Selle joonise peal küll tagumiste aknalaua omadel ei räägi Bosest midagi, ainult külje omadel on Bose mainitud nagu ise ilmselt ka märkasid.

Kuidas saada tagasi heli tagumistesse ustesse
bose süsteemiga tegemist .. a6 c5 2000a universaal. Vb kellegil sama mure olnud ja saaks nõu anda.

Heli kadus ära peale seda kui orikasupaka pesast tuli 1 juhe lahti(valge) ja kadus koos supakaga. Okei lahendasin probleemi et panin valge juhtme taas kokku. Orikas supakas hakkas tööle kuid tagumised kõlarid mitte. Miks?

Uurisin maki taga olevaid juhtmeid, uste sees kõlarite omasi jne. kuid tolku polnud ..

Kus asub bose süsteemil võimendi(2000a a6 c5), kui tal see ültse eksisteerib? Google otsinguga leian kahese kõlariga originaal bose värgi pagassis. Kuid mul tundub olevat ühe kõlariga. Ja kas on võimalik et originaal võimendi küljes, mingi tagumiste kõlarite kaitse põles mingil moel läbi, kuna sealt heli täielikult kadunud ? Kui tal see ültse eksisteerib siis kus kohas ja kuidas ligipääsen ?

Ootan endiselt ja ikka veel ja veel targemate soovitusi kust otsida/vaadata viga enda probleemile. Kahe päeva jooksul pole mingit tagasisidet saanud -.-

Taas oleks nõu vaja. Milline võimendi peale originaali (Bose?) sobiks C4 sedaanile, kui kõik salongis olevad kõlarid on originaal Bose süsteemi omad? Kaabeldus on ka veel puudu - vähemalt esmapilgul tundub, et kogu komplekti ühendamiseks olevad pistikud on Bose ja tavalise C4 helisüsteemi puhul erinevad.

LINK

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=179604658738690

Active Sound Management: different technologies to meet different challenges

Cancel undesirable noise
Bose Engine Harmonic Cancellation (EHC) uses information from the engine along with microphones in the cabin to continuously analyze engine noise. The system then uses the vehicle's audio system to produce a signal acoustically opposite to the undesirable sound and effectively reduce it. EHC allows for a high level of customization and control for the NVH engineer, while providing effective and efficient noise cancellation.

Image of EHE chart
Provide desirable, linear sound
Bose Engine Harmonic Enhancement (EHE) also works with the vehicle's audio system. Using information from the engine and vehicle, it generates a complementary signal to enhance or modify the spectrum of select powertrain sounds, to provide refined and desirable—smooth or sporty—powertrain sound inside the cabin. EHE can help create more linear sound while mitigating or masking sound anomalies. It offers broader sound control than traditional methods and enables more precise control.

Control for multiple modes
Rapid Mode Transition (RMT) module is an optional, add-on feature for Bose EHC or EHE that provides additional capabilities for managing complex noise challenges associated with variable powertrain and cabin modes. When multiple tuning modes are required to achieve a desired powertrain sound character (cylinder deactivation/reactivation, hybrid operation, etc.), the transitions between modes may require special control. The Bose RMT module offers additional control parameters to the engineer for a more seamless sound experience.


http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1089316_bose-to-offer-noise-canceling-tech-for-all-cars
Dec 24, 2013

Many performance car fans are rather fond of the noises their vehicles make, but there are times when you just wish a car would shut up--the drive home after a long day at work, perhaps, or while listening to the drone of your muffler on a highway drive.

For such eventualities several companies have developed noise-canceling technology, and audio specialists Bose have announced a new chip that allows the technology to be incorporated into any vehicle--not just those with Bose audio systems.

According to Autoblog, a new NXP semiconductor chip allows all manner of systems to be incorporated into AM, FM and DAB tuners. As well as running the various features of modern in-car infotainment packages, it can also run Bose's noise-canceling technology. Active noise canceling has the ability to take the wavelength of unwanted sounds such as engine and powertrain noise and play back noise at opposite frequencies--so those inside the car enjoy reduced noise over those frequencies. That doesn't just mean loud noises from your exhaust, but unpleasant sounds associated with engines meeting modern emissions and fuel standards, with unusual harmonics and other odd sounds.

The system does rely on your vehicle's audio equipment working at the frequencies required by the technology, and your audio head unit must incorporate the appropriate NXP SAF775x car radio integrated circuit. But aside from those limitations, it should work in anything. Until now, the system was only available in models from Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and Infiniti, which used original equipment sound systems by Bose.

The company also says the sounds are programmed for each vehicle, which means a whole range of vehicles could get the option of a quieter, more pleasant cabin.


http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/22/bose-noise-cancelling-in-new-cars/

Bose® Active Sound Management Software for Noise Cancellation in Cars Now Available on Chip from NXP Semiconductors

FRAMINGHAM, Mass., December 17, 2013 --(BUSINESS WIRE)--Today, Bose announced it will offer its industry-leading noise-management capabilities to auto manufacturers as a software solution integrated on a chip from NXP Semiconductors N.V. Through an engineering collaboration with NXP, vehicles without Bose® speakers and amplifiers can now use Bose Active Sound Management technology to cancel unwanted engine and powertrain noise in a car's cabin. The Bose software solution will operate in any vehicle using a head unit equipped with NXP's SAF775x car radio integrated circuit, and any sound system that performs in the frequency range necessary for active noise cancellation.

The Bose/NXP solution provides an easy, efficient approach for controlling engine and powertrain noise by using existing sound system designs and eliminating the weight and cost of traditional noise management. The Bose noise-cancellation software is customizable; Bose engineers will tune it to the manufacturer's requirements, providing comprehensive, scalable support for the technology during vehicle development, pre-production and post-production.

"Bose is an industry leader in Active Sound Management technology, helping car makers efficiently control the way their vehicles sound inside the cabin," said Marc Mansell, general manager of the Bose Automotive Systems Division. "Now, we can offer that capability to new customers in a new way -- on a chip -- making our proven expertise even more accessible."

"The new SAF775x family of car radio and audio one-chips opens up a new field of audio applications," said Torsten Lehmann, senior vice president and general manager, car entertainment solutions, NXP Semiconductors. "We're proud to bring the benefits of Bose noise management to our broad base of automotive customers and further strengthen our No. 1 position in the automotive infotainment semiconductor market."

Solving Noise-Related Challenges
Many of today's cars have a variety of systems and components, including high-performance and high-efficiency powertrains that produce unfamiliar and unpleasant sounds. To address this, automotive engineers need to create solutions that will refine the sound in the cabin. But this adds time and cost to the development cycle.

Bose developed Active Sound Management technology as an alternate approach, drawing from more than 30 years of research in automotive acoustics and noise cancelling for aviation, military and consumer applications. Unlike conventional noise-management systems that rely on mechanical solutions, Bose Active Sound Management uses proprietary signal processing algorithms to replace heavy, space-consuming parts, such as acoustic insulation, mass dampers and active exhaust valves.

But until now, Active Sound Management was only available in cars with Bose sound system hardware, including models from Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and Infiniti. The Bose/NXP solution extends the technology capabilities to a wider range of car makers and models.

Targeted Noise Cancellation
Bose Active Sound Management targets a narrow band of low-frequency engine sounds in zones throughout the cabin.

Using information from cabin-mounted microphones and engine information from the vehicle's data bus communication system, a Bose algorithm continuously monitors and measures noise, and sends acoustically opposite sound signals through the vehicle's speakers to cancel targeted noise. The system is programmed specifically for each vehicle, responding only when needed.

For more information about Bose Active Sound Management solutions, visit Bose.com/ASM.


08.04.15.a info Bose'lt: .. the only Audi currently available with EHC is the A7. There will be more EHC equipped Audi models in the future but the A7, several Cadillac's, an Infiniti and a Mazda vehicle are the only models on the market at this point in time.

http://www.audi.ee/content/dam/ngw/ee/Audi-magazin/audi%20AM%202014%20web.pdf

Kas Bang ja Olufson kuulub endiselt Teie soovitud lisavarustuse hulka?
Kuulus eelmiste mudelite juurde, kuid just viimati Peterburist Tallinnasse sõites kuulasin oma A7-s olevat Bose audiosüsteemist (Bose Surround Sound, 14 kõlarit, võimsus 600 W - autor) muusikat ja pean ütlema, et mingit kvaliteedivahet B&O-ga ma küll ei täheldanud. Ma pole mingi melomaan, kuulan muusikat täiesti töisel eesmärgil, nii et minu jaoks ei mängi brändi nimi nime enda pärast mingit rolli.

Kas b5 sedaanis on supakas taga pagassis koopas või aknalaual ka midagi? Kuidas üldse sedaani bose heli annab, siiani tundunud, et avantides on heli alati parem olnud, kuna näiteks bass ei taha seal sedaani pagassist salongi jõuda.

C4 Avant Bose, kas on võimalik lihtsa vaevaga lisada taha üks suurema diameetriga subwoofer, lihtsuse all pean silmas seda, et heli signaalid saab originaal subboxist? Vool plaanis Webasto akult võtta, seega ainus küsimus ongi, kas helisignaalid saab tagant?

Kas keegi a6 c5 avantile bose supakat on peale toppinud. Mul on järelturu jvc sisse topitud ja plaan oleks bose supakas sisse toppida. Keegi oskab öelda kui keeruliseks see võib osutuda? Mul on bose juhtmestik ka olemas. Väga ei viitsi talvel kogu juhtmestiku vahetama hakata. Üldiselt nii palju kui pihta sain on see et supakalw vaja + ja - vedada ja orig. systeemist peilisin välja et kasutatakse tagumiste kõlarite kanaleid supakale sisendiks. Hea kui keegi viitsiks parandada mind.

C4 Bose Avant wiring diagrammid on vist aegunud sellel lingil, kas keegi saaks jagada ?

Bang & Olufsen vs stock Bose.


I bought the 2013 S6 and didn't go with the B/O, and have been quite disappointed with the Bose system. It is a noticeable step down from my 2004 S4 Bose system, believe it or not.

___________________


I own a Mercedes sl55 that has Hertz speaker, JL amps, JL subs etc and the latest Kenwood receiver. I spent over 6k on this system.

I also have a Mercedes GL with all Focal, and JL equipment in it.

I just bought a 2011 A8L. It does have the B&O in it. Now when I seen the cost (6300) I said I would never pay for that. However, of course I will take it in a CPO car. My point is that this is the clearest most clearly separated system I have ever heard. With the exception of Bass, this system definitely sounds better than my other two vehicles.

I have worked at a high end shop in Center City Philadelphia, and have been involved with many installations. I also had my current two systems installed by a well know South Jersey installer. Just stating this as I am no newbie to high end equipment in vehicles.


__________________


For the price of the B&O upgrade the entire Bose system can be replaced with high-end aftermarket gear and yield results that are tremendously better.

There is no such thing as a good factory stereo. They simply don't exist. Not at any price point.

Your description of the qualities of the B&O system clearly illustrates that you have extensive knowledge and understanding of high-end audio. You would be a perfect candidate for having an aftermarket, sound-quality oriented system.

The things you are craving like dynamics, imaging, staging, proper tonality will never be had in a factory stereo system. You need quality components, proper installation and sound dampening to get good results.


You also made excellent points about the speaker positions and sound localization. Many car companies market their stereo systems by the number of speakers installed. Having more speakers often makes for inferior imaging and staging, especially when the speaker locations are not laid out correctly and there is not proper processing/equalization.

Having a tweeter on the dash inside of a motorized pod, and the matching midrange in the door is a recipe for disaster. A tweeter and midrange should be installed as closely together as possible. Preferably, they should be point source where the tweeter and mid are centered with their voice coils perfectly aligned so they are phase coherent through the full crossover range. If not point source, they must be installed no more than about 7" apart. Time alignment will be required to get the drivers in phase, and that time alignment will only work for a single listening position (i.e. the driver seat). Other listening positions will be adversely affected by the time alignment.


____________________________

Audi S6 Avant 4.0 TFSI V8T 439kW

Autole paigaldatud uus prof. helisüsteem (Rockfrod võimendi, Rockford Punch element originaalkasti sisse ja lisaks sai välja vahetatud ebakvaliteetsed hiina Bose elemendid ustest + tweeterid).
Sama protseduuri käigus said paigaldatud ustesse ka mürasummutusmatid.

Kuna muusika pole väga minu teema, siis küsiks ka nõu vahelduseks nõustamisele.
C7 Bose juhiukse midbass kõlar hakkas plärtsuma peale Saaremaa memmedega tantsu löömist. Vahetus lihtne, kate eest, neli kruvi, kaks klemmi ja käes. Eraldi muidugi Audi elementi ei müü ja seega mõte asendada millegi paremaga. Kindlasti peab mahtuma orig. auku, kuna polstrit ja kõlarikoda eemaldada ei taha. On keegi sinna midagi sobitanud?

Selline pilt ka

Ma arvan effekti pole oem vs uus, kui ainult neid keskmisi vahetad. Peaks vahetama ehk ka asukohti, võimendust, madalaid ja ülemisi.

OEM hinda tead? Endal läks ka hiljuti (kõrvalistuja poolne). Või kui asenduse leiad, võid teada anda

Tsitaat:

Algselt postitas: Mustanq OEM hinda tead? Endal läks ka hiljuti (kõrvalistuja poolne). Või kui asenduse leiad, võid teada anda